From Cotton Mills to Civic Pride: The Evolution of Hyde Town

Local historian Jim Fitzpatrick takes us on a fascinating journey through Hyde's transformation from a rural settlement to an industrial powerhouse, revealing how the cotton industry shaped the town we know today. His extensive knowledge uncovers the stories behind Hyde Town Hall, local personalities, and the profound social changes that occurred over two centuries.

• Hyde's population exploded from 3,500 in 1801 to 30,000 by 1881 due to the cotton industry boom
• The Ashton Brothers dominated the cotton trade, bringing workers from as far as Yorkshire to work in their mills
• Children as young as six worked 12-hour shifts in factories until child labour laws gradually improved conditions
• Hyde Town Hall, completed in stages between 1883-1914, was deliberately built in brick to symbolize modernity
• Civic pride flourished with wealthy residents contributing personal funds – Thomas Ashton paid £500 for the clock tower
• Hyde FC holds the record for the worst defeat in FA Cup history, losing 26-0 to Preston North End in 1887
• Belgian refugees carved the memorial boards in Hyde Town Hall listing 710 local men who died in WWI
• Famous connections include the Moors Murderers (arrested and held at Hyde Police Station) and boxing champion Ricky Hatton
• Despite industrial decline, Hyde's population has remained remarkably stable at around 34,000 for over a century

If you're interested in taking a tour of Hyde Town Hall or learning more about local history, contact Jim Fitzpatrick. Tours are regularly available during Heritage Weekend, and group tours can be arranged by request.

For information on Hyde Town Hall Tours - email: jim.fitzpatrick0105@gmail.com

Chapters

• 0:00 Introduction to Hyde's Local History
• 9:57 Cotton Industry's Transformation of Hyde
• 23:05 Hyde Town Hall: Symbol of Civic Pride
• 39:32 First World War and Belgian Refugees
• 50:47 Cultural Identity and Famous Figures
• 1:02:59 Present-Day Hyde and Community Changes
• 1:12:29 Embracing Change and Future Development

Transcript

MArk: 0:08

Hello and welcome. Welcome back to Hats, chats and Giggles. I'm your host, mark. I'm your host, mark, and today we're going to be diving into the fascinating history of Hyde with a very special guest. Joining me is local historian and mover and shaker, jim Fitzpatrick. Jim spent many years uncovering and sharing the stories of Hyde Town, from the rich industrial heritage of Hyde to the iconic town hall that stands as a landmark in our community to this day. Jim's going to be helping us understand the past that has shaped the place that we call home today.

MArk: 0:59

But before we go, I just want to do a big shout-out to Emily and G-Cross, the twins in Singapore, and all our international listeners. Yes, that's right. Hats, chats and giggles has gone completely international. We've got listeners from all over the world. I don't know what they're listening, I don't know what they're tuning in for, but yeah, thanks for listening. Beryl's just got back from her beefer. She's been raving all weekend. She'll be making the brews and it's just good to have her back. So, without further ado, let's introduce, let's get speaking to Jim to Jim.

JimFitzpatrick: 1:54

Hello, hi, jim, morning Mark, and thank you very much for inviting me along this morning to give people an insight into Hyde that you know we probably hopefully they won't know about, and I can enlighten them on why we are Hyde and what Hyde's all about right, great, great, well.

MArk: 2:06

Um well, first off then, for the listeners who might not know much about Hyde, can you give us a quick, a quick snapshot of the the town's history and how it's developed over the years?

JimFitzpatrick: 2:18

yeah, hyde. Hyde, as people would understand, was quite rural and you know it was an agricultural settlement. Very, very few houses spread across the borough. People used to work in on the land and then in the houses or in the cottages and in the older cottages you'll find that they've got attics and cellars and what used to happen is they'd spin and weave cotton in the houses as a supplement to the agricultural work, and what tended to happen was the women and children would spin and the men would weave, and they would have basic machinery in the house to do that. Once they'd wove the cloth they would then take that into Manchester and sell it, and there wasn't the 201 going into Manchester at the time, so they would either walk into Manchester or, if they could, they'd have a donkey and that would carry the materials in there. But basically they would walk into Manchester, carry the cloth into Manchester, sell it and buy some raw materials, then to come back home Again, spin and weave the cotton and then take it back into Manchester and that would turn round in about two weeks and that would supplement the agricultural land because in the winter you couldn't work on the land. So that was how cotton was made back in the 1700s at the time.

JimFitzpatrick: 3:45

But then it became mechanised and one of the interesting things I found when I was looking at it in 1720 there was legislation passed that only silk and linen were able. You could only colour them or print on them. You couldn't print on any other materials. So that stopped cotton being used in a sense. Well, why was that then? Well, because the linen, they saw that cotton being used in a sense. Well, why was that then? Why did? Well, because the, the linen and they saw that cotton was on on the up and it was cheaper than linen and cotton. Uh, linen and silk and the upper classes would wear linen and silk and it could be colored. And that was a debar to people. If you were wearing cotton, you were a chance how you were working class or lower class and the upper class would wear silk and linen and that was coloured. And that legislation stayed in Parliament for 50 years Once you released that and then you could start using cotton and they were able to start colouring it and printing on it.

JimFitzpatrick: 4:43

Cotton really took off and the cotton industry took off in Hyde and in Thames, hyde and the surrounding areas. If you look back at the population census of Hyde. In 1801 the population of Hyde was 3,500. By 1881 that population was 30,000. Wow, now that was down to the number of cotton mills that grew up in the town at the time. The largest population was in G-Cross and there was a lot of water in G-Cross and the mills initially were powered by water. So in the early 1800s, late 1700s, there was about 40 mils in Hyde. That reduced down to 27 mils once you start introducing steam and one of the other things that we found in Hyde there's a lot of coal and that's across Tameside, it's in Ashton Staley Bridge and Hyde. So there was a lot of coal in. That's across Tameside, it's in Ashton Staley Bridge and Hyde. So there was a lot of coal in Hyde as well. So they dug the coal out and then they could use steam. So they transformed the industry. Then the factories became steam industries. So all the cotton, the weaving and spinning, was done in the factories.

JimFitzpatrick: 6:02

One of the main families in Hyde was the Ashton Brothers and the Ashton Brothers mill was still open up until the sort of late 60s and it was one of the longest mills in Hyde and in the surrounding areas that were doing cotton at the time but the Ashton Brothers really sort of monopolised the cotton industry. They weren't the only family, but they were the main family and there were six brothers and that's why you had Ashton brothers at the time. But they found that they didn't have enough people. One of the things is, if you're making this industrial change that they did in the sort of early 1800s, they had to get more people to come to Hyde. So they sent out agents across the country. We even got people from Yorkshire coming into Hyde which we'd never had before, as far away as Barnsley places like that. But they had to go and offer the agricultural workers in those places to try and bring them into Hyde to say, look, you'll get a regular payment and you come work in the factories.

JimFitzpatrick: 7:05

And one of the things also was the child laws that changed. So a lot of the children worked in the factories as well. And one of the things about the Industrial Revolution was the cheap labour was children and there was a lot of them. There was a lot of children in the Victorian age so they used children a lot in the factories as well. So they worked in the factories and over the years those laws changed.

JimFitzpatrick: 7:31

At the front of the town hall. You'll see a plaque there to the different child laws and when I do my tours and if I do them for the schools I'll take the children round there and some of them won't realise that you had to get up and be in work at six o'clock in the morning. And it's not only getting up, but you had to be in work for six o'clock and you do a 12-hour day. And then they changed the laws that children didn't couldn't work night shifts, so children would work nine and then up to nine. You couldn't work until you were over the age of nine or then over the age of 11, and then you had to have at least one and a half hour school in a week. So all those laws that changed over that period is quite incredible really that we assume today children just get up and go to school and then come home. Children were working a 12-hour shift. Six seven-year-olds were working in the factories at those times and that's one of the things that developed in Hyde. But if you look at the front of the town hall you'll see the different child laws, that how we changed over the years, stopping children from actually going to work and working in there and that that changed again.

JimFitzpatrick: 8:43

And one of the things about Hyde because we increased, we brought in all these different people into Hyde. That meant other industries took off and it made certain people quite wealthy. So we had a hatting industry, we had the mines where people would dig in, we had engineering. You know, we developed the engineering, the railway lines developed around Hyde. Hyde is one of those rare towns that's got five railway stations. Now, if you look round, denton's not got any, duckingfield hasn't got a train station, hyde has got five train stations.

MArk: 9:20

So can I? I'm sorry to interrupt you there. I just want to get on this child. You know the child laws thing. I wanted to pick up on that. So who changed them laws? How did them? Because obviously the mill owners and the, the, you know the, the guys in with the power to produce and it wasn't in their interest. So who, how did them actually laws change? Do you know how that happened?

JimFitzpatrick: 9:46

Well, it went through legislation. I mean, obviously one of the things about Hyde was we had the Chartist movement in Hyde and that was quite prevalent. It was quite a radical area really. There was a lot of uprising. So the workers changed the laws. I mean it was legislation that changed the laws. I mean it was legislation that changed the laws. But it was the idea that this idea that children are working in factories is just wrong. I mean the mill owners as well.

JimFitzpatrick: 10:14

The Ashton brothers were Christians, if you like, at the time. And it's interesting, thomas Ashton, who was the first, first mayor of hyde, was a non-conformist, so he wasn't catholic, he wasn't a protestant, he was a non-conformist. So when he wanted to go to um university, none of the universities in england would take non-conformist in them. He had to be a protestant really to to get into a university. So so he had his education in Heidelberg in Germany. So he went because he was very wealthy. He could do that. If you weren't a Protestant in England at the time you could not go to university back in the 1800s. And if you're a woman you're lucky if you've got an education. But if you were a man at the time you couldn't go to a university in England if you weren't a Protestant, and that excluded Catholics as well. So if you're a Catholic woman, you've no chance. Well times have changed.

JimFitzpatrick: 11:19

Well, we say times have changed. There's still prejudice now, but at the time there was lots of different. Religion was a big issue and you know there was, like I say, the Ashtons were non-conformists and because he was such a wealthy man, when he built his factories in Flurryfield he built the church there, the Flurryfield Church, his non-conformist church. So he had the wealth to do that and that's what he did. But we'll get back to Thomas Ashton later on. So as Hyde developed around that time there was lots of industries developing. Like I say, the main population at the time was at G-Cross, but then they started moving away from that and you had Newton and Godley.

JimFitzpatrick: 12:01

Hadsley was still quite an agricultural area. There was mainly farms up in Hadsley. But Hadsley was actually mentioned in the Doomsday book, where Hyde was just not mentioned. Hadsley was always a township before there, because we came in the parish of Mottram and there wasn't very much in Hyde at the time. So if you look back on the history, hyde was quite rural at the time and you know there wasn't a lot of people living there and, like I say, it's the Industrial Revolution really that's taken off there.

JimFitzpatrick: 12:37

So because we had this population now of 30,000, they decided they wanted to get recognised as a corporation. They had a health board and the roads and they saw that the town needed to develop. So they were building the roads. But the population was too big for these small what they called boards at the time to deal with everything. So they wanted to become a corporation. So in 1877 they applied to the government at the time for it to become a corporation. They they got people to sign a petition to say they wanted to become incorporated and they were refused. But then they applied again in 1881 and they were approved. So they got approval that they could become Hyde Corporation.

MArk: 13:24

When you say corporation, do you mean like a council?

JimFitzpatrick: 13:28

Yeah, that became a council that gave them legislation and they could make bylaws. They could start making roads, doing buildings, gave them planning permission and everything. So Hyde was more or less. It was better that this could develop then. So they got permission on the 18th of February 1881.

JimFitzpatrick: 13:51

So one of the first things they did they had elections then to to elect uh councillors. So they split the the town into three wards, which was Newton, godley and Werneth, and they elected. They held uh elections and they they elected six men in Newton, six men in Godley and six men in in Werneth. Women didn't have the vote at the time in 1881, that didn't come until 1930, so it was all men. So it's interesting, at the time time the 18 men got elected, they held their first meeting within a week of being elected and decided that they needed six aldermen. So they elected two aldermen from Werner, two from Newton, two from Godley, and then went out then within a month and elected two more men from Werner, godley and Newton. So the council then was 24 men. Six of them were aldermen and the term of alderman was that they were higher ranking than a councillor. In a sense, an alderman was elected for five years, councillors were elected for four. So they set up the system and they had. The first council was 24 men 18 Liberal councillors and six Conservative councillors. Those were the only two parties at the time and they decided to elect the mayor, who was Thomas Ashton. As I've said earlier, thomas Ashton was a very rich man in the area, part of the Ashton brother family. So he became the first mayor of Hyde and they were lucky in the sense that they did elect Thomas Ashton brother family. So he became the first mayor of Hyde. And they were lucky in the sense that they did elect Thomas Ashton because he bought the mayoral chain, which was 18 carat gold and that mayoral chain was used for all the different ceremonies.

JimFitzpatrick: 15:39

But then they decided they needed somewhere to meet. They needed somewhere where they uh, they were meeting, just a different place at the time but it wasn't good enough. So in the center of Hyde, where Hyde Town all is, there was a factory there called Greenfield House and a factory at the back of it. So Greenfield House, quite a large house, but then it had there was a factory attached to it as well. So they decided to rent greenfield house and that's the place where they were meeting.

JimFitzpatrick: 16:09

They'd looked at around the borough, you've got to realize that staley bridge town hall was built in 1831, ashton town hall was built in 1840 and this is now the 1880s and hyde was just starting to develop. And they they looked at those different town halls and they thought we need a building, we need some sort of status symbol to say that basically, we're Hyde. And that's what they did. So they put out then to try and build a town hall and they gave it to one of the councillors called John Thornley. He said, right, go away and give it, make some plans or have a look at what we could do. And they did that. And they got the drawings and, if you notice, staley Bridge Town Hall had stone pillars at the front, similar to Ashton's Town Hall, with the stone pillars.

JimFitzpatrick: 16:57

Hyde wanted to be a new town. They wanted a new symbol. So they built Hyde Town Hall in brick because this was the new material for the next century. So that's why they built Hyde Town Hall. And you look at Hyde Town Hall. It's completely different to both the two old town halls.

JimFitzpatrick: 17:18

Interestingly, when John Thornley wanted to build this town hall, he'd got Greenfield House at a peppercorn rent for 60 years. So there was a lot of debate whether you know, we just stay with Greenfield House or we build a new building. And the debate got quite heated. They were saying it's a good deal here. You've signed up for 60 years, we'll stick with this. And he wasn't happy with that. He said no, we're a new town, we need our own status symbol. So to the sense that they went out for a referendum on whether we build the town hall or we stay in Greenfield House with the rent for 60 years. So the vote came back 70-30, stay in Greenfield House. But John Thorne said I'm not happy with that, we need a new town hall. So we got a new town hall.

MArk: 18:08

That's democracy for you, isn't it?

JimFitzpatrick: 18:10

It was back then. Yeah, Clearly.

MArk: 18:16

So I mean, I've learnt loads in just what you've said there. So, while we're on the town hall, um, you've answered some of my questions that I've lined up. So do you think the town halls changed over the time and how it's used? How is it used by the community today? How do you know?

JimFitzpatrick: 18:41

one of the things about the town hall. When they they initially built the town hall at the time they had uh, they took a loan out for eight, eight thousand pound to build the town hall. So that's how much the town hall cost and it wasn't the whole of the town hall. The town hall was built in stages. So the first part of the town hall was purely administrative, so it was. You'll notice on the stained glass windows at the front there's the borough clerk and the borough treasurer, and those were the administrative buildings. And then upstairs they had the council chamber. So the hall, the police station and the courtrooms that were added later and what we called the greenfield rooms at the side. They weren't built until later on. So initially they just built the administrative side of the town hall and that was that was started in march 1883. By june 1883 they laid the first foundation stone. Now, if you think that it was local company that took that on, they demolished greenfield house and built the foundations within three months for them to lay the foundation stone which is at the front of the town hall. It'll be very interesting in years to come because they put a time capsule under that foundation stone with all the local stuff in there. Now I don't know what's in that time capsule. Hopefully the town hall will still be there many years to come, but for any of our younger listeners, if eventually we do get that time capsule out, it'd be interesting to see what they've actually put in it. Because we do this with new buildings now we put time capsules in, so they put all the local the edition of the first paper and who the council were, and all stuff like that in this time capsule and they buried it under that foundation stone. But one of the things at the time when we when we look just to lay that foundation stone, thomas ashton laid the foundation stone. He had a parade around hyde of 10 000 people who walked around Hyde and came into the town centre just to watch Thomas Ashton lay the foundation stone.

JimFitzpatrick: 20:58

Like I say, thomas Ashton was a very rich man at the time and when they built the town hall, the clock tower was added because, you know, people didn't have wristwatcheses, they didn't have mobile phones at the time, so time was very important. So he wanted a clock tower so that everybody in high could see it. So he paid 500 pounds and I'll tell you the the cost of the building was 8 000 at the time. He paid 500 pound for the clock tower to be extended. Now there is a another famous individual, joshua Bradley. He paid for the bells to be put into high in the clock in the clock tower for high town hall. And then again they were they. They were 500 pound for the bells. So he, these different individuals, contributed to the town hall. Now you don't, we don't get that these days, do we.

MArk: 21:52

So what was Joshua Bradley? What's his background?

JimFitzpatrick: 21:55

Joshua Bradley was just a mill worker but he built himself up to be the manager of the mill so he became quite a wealthy individual and he had that money. He only lived on Mottram Road in Hyde and he paid the £500 pound and it's all about civic pride, yeah, and that was why they did it.

JimFitzpatrick: 22:16

So they wanted this town hall because it was the civic pride of hyde. Like, say, thomas ashton paid for it to be extended, joshua bradley paid for the bells because he wanted the best bells he could get. And I mean it's hard to see on here, but on the tour I actually take people up to the clock tower and it's a wonderful mechanism. So when people say, oh, the clock's wrong, or something you want to see, that mechanism in the clock tower is 150 years old. We have adapted it over the years because it's now run by electricity.

JimFitzpatrick: 22:48

But, interesting, at the time when they were building the town hall, the clerk of works who made sure that it was on time and on budget was paid £3,000 to do that. They had £3,000 over the period of the time. The clock at that time had somebody going in every couple of days to wind it up. So they had somebody going in there and winding that clock up and he got paid a ton of pennies to do that. So it is different times you think, oh, the clock's wrong, let's just change the batteries on it. It's not that simple. It's a wonderful mechanism. That clock A feat of engineering, really.

MArk: 23:32

And you know what? It's not that simple. It's a wonderful mechanism, that clock feat of engineering really. And you know what's good to see it? That it's still it's back telling the time. I was in the day and it was like, yes, yeah, it's a good sign when you've got a town hall with the clock working the clock working, but a lot of people.

JimFitzpatrick: 23:46

I mean, at the time people wouldn't have had wristwatches, so they relied on it and that's why they wanted to make sure they saw it from a distance and that was one of the things about the town hall. But it's about that. At the time it was this civic pride and that's why Hyde was going to be different from any other town. They wanted to be different from Ashton, they wanted to be different from Hyde. And they built lots of other things. You know they built the college on Union Street, the library, they built all the roads. So they built housing. They had a real housing programme to develop all the houses around there. They built schools. You know there's a real development time in Hyde. So those early 1900s we saw massive real development time in Hyde. So those early 1900s we saw massive developments going on in Hyde. But interestingly at the time, because we had this civic pride and everybody in Hyde was really proud to be Hyde, they created a football team called Hyde FC.

JimFitzpatrick: 24:47

Now, in 1887, hyde FC, only two years into being formed, decided to enter into the FA Cup, which they did. So they entered the FA Cup and they were drawn against Preston North End who were the sort of Manchester City, manchester United at the time. Preston went on in 1888 to do the double and they were the first team to do the double. They were the best team around. Preston went on in 1888 to do the double and they were the first team to do the double. They were the best team around Preston, north End. And Preston just saw we're just playing this little team from Hyde in a cup and they asked Hyde if we could rearrange the fixture to a Wednesday night because they'd got an important league fixture on the Saturday. And Hyde said no, our lads are all working lads, we want to play on a Saturday. Preston weren't too happy at this and Preston put out their best team to play Hyde. So on the Saturday they played Hyde. They beat Hyde 26-0.

MArk: 25:48

Wow.

JimFitzpatrick: 25:49

Which is a record in the FA Cup that stands today. So you think it was 14-0. At half-time they went. They sort of Preston were not happy that Hyde wouldn't abide by what they'd done, but they got absolutely battered and, like I say, that's the highest score in any FA Cup game. But also, hyde is in the record books but probably on the wrong side of it.

MArk: 26:14

Yeah, something good comes out of something bad, I suppose.

JimFitzpatrick: 26:17

But it was the civic pride that they had that they thought yeah, we're Hyde, we can take on anybody. So they took on Preston North End and got stuffed.

MArk: 26:25

So, on the civic pride, how do you think, do you think we still, how do you think? I mean society's changed so much in so many ways, technology and everything like that Do you think there still is a bit of civic pride in Hyde?

JimFitzpatrick: 26:40

There is some civic pride. I'm very proud that I was born in Hyde and bred in Hyde and that's probably why I've looked back at the history. But there is civic pride in Hyde but we have lost it a sense from what it used to be. It's a lot different. In those times it was, um, you had these very rich people that thought we'll give something back. So you, you get lots of different foundations. I've got um a book here that on on uh Hyde and all the different uh charities that were set up at the time. So people would donate different monies into different things. But it was that civic pride and they did take pride in the town centre.

JimFitzpatrick: 27:22

One of the other things people have noticed in Hyde Park there's a water fountain in Hyde Park that was actually on the market in Hyde and that was donated by the Temperance Society. One of the things about working in the cotton industry it's a very dry industry. It made you very dry and if you were in there for 12 hours at a time, you do get dry. So what they used to do was the water wasn't safe to drink, so they would drink beer. Now the beer was it's not as strong as it is today, but over a 12-hour period. If you were drinking beer all the time to try and help you with the dust on your throat, you still get drunk and alcoholism was a real problem back in the sort of early 1800s and 1900s.

JimFitzpatrick: 28:12

The Temperance Society was set up in Hyde because they saw this problem and they wanted clean water coming in. They wanted people to stop drinking beer, so they made this. They donated a water fountain in the centre of Hyde so people could drink the water from there. But the Temperance Society had an influence in another sense that because of the time of the change and the more houses were built and everything, they were naming the streets. So the back of the town hall is water street and the small street off there called port street and another street called milk street. So milk and water were and port because the rich tended to drink port. We're all safe liquids to drink. There's no beer street or body street or anything like that in Hyde. But that was the thing they were trying to influence people not to drink alcohol and drink water or milk or port because they were acceptable to drink.

JimFitzpatrick: 29:12

But, like I say, one of the other things about hide is because we're in a bit of a dip and we've got the Pennines there and it's very wet, as people will understand, and it's quite damp in hide. That was good for the cotton, because if the cotton's damp and moist it doesn't snap as easy. So when you're weaving it, you know it won't snap when if. When you're weaving it, you know it won't snap where if it was dry? If the cotton was dry, it snaps quite easily. So that was one of the attractions of bringing cotton into hide because of the atmosphere.

MArk: 29:42

So do you have? Do you have any? How many? How many mills you know? Because if you look at the landscape of hide now, there's only a few mills left. I remember when I was younger there used to be a lot of mills across the same side, across East Manchester really. So how many mills did they used to be in Hyde? Do you know? Have you got a figure?

JimFitzpatrick: 30:03

Well, in the early 1800s there was 40, and that reduced to 27 by 1840. 1860, I think it was, we were down to 27. And then those disappeared and in 1960, there was only the sort of Ashton Brothers mills left which was Baileyfield, carfield, which was around the Ashton area. The other mills are older, dead right now and have gone really, or they were changed. I mean, you notice, in Ashton the Camberdish mill has changed into houses or flats. Yeah Well, that was the thing. But the mills did disappear but other industry came into Hyde at the time. That's one of the things. The population of Hyde, I said in 1881 was 30,000. I'll just ask you, what do you think the population of Hyde is in today?

MArk: 30:55

Me About to say, it's 20,000.

JimFitzpatrick: 31:02

Oh, in the 2021 census it was 34,000. Right, so from 1881 to 2021, the population of Hyde hasn't really changed and over the years it's fluctuated. It's always been around 30,000, you know the different changes. We cleared a lot of the housing when we built the motorway through Hyde so lots of the terraced housing went there. So you've got to replace that housing. So back in 1881, when we look at the housing, there was 7,200 dwellings in Hyde but it averaged six adults to a dwelling. Now there's about 15,000 dwellings in Hyde, averaging around about two adults per household. So it does change. So we have built more houses but the population not increased that much. But we still need to build more houses because the population is increasing. For example, you look at Hattersley. There's eight tower blocks in Hattersley. They house what? 800 dwellings each. They've all disappeared now. They've all gone and we've got to build more houses to replace them because the population has not changed.

MArk: 32:08

No.

JimFitzpatrick: 32:09

So the number of dwellings we need has increased.

MArk: 32:13

So, getting back to what you mentioned earlier about your tour tell us about. Come on, give us a plug about the tour Tell us about the tour.

JimFitzpatrick: 32:21

The tour is happening. I mean it is a bit short. The tour is happening tomorrow at 11 o'clock at Hyde Town Hall. One of the interesting things about Hyde was when the building was finished in 1884, it was November 1884 that it was finished. It was middle of dark nights and everything. So they didn't actually officially open the town hall until June 1885 when they had a huge parade around Hyde 20,000 in the parade. It's, it's.

JimFitzpatrick: 32:55

I've dug out the North Cheshire Herald. It tells you about all the schools that were in there, all the the brass band that led it and all the different societies that were were there at the time, all carrying the banners. You probably remember that there used to be whip walks, didn't they, where all the schools would be involved. All that's gone now, but at the time there was. All the schools were involved in it and they marched all through Uphnoot and all back down to Market Street to the town hall square where they were joined by another 20,000. So you think the population at the time was 30,000. In Hyde the market square was full of 30,000. In Hyde the market square was full of 20,000 people. It's just incredible really. More or less all the town turned out to see by then, in 1885, the mayor was Mayor Hibbert and he opened the town hall with the Golden Key and the Golden Key's still in Portland.

JimFitzpatrick: 33:52

Basically, People wanted to go and see it and then he went up to the balcony and waved to all the crowd and 600 coins were minted at the time to celebrate the celebration of opening High Town Hall at the time. And then it was obviously an administrative building. In 1913, they decided to do the extension, which was the main hall, police station, courtrooms and the rest of the building. That was completed in 1914. Obviously they couldn't have a parade in September 1914 because it started the First World War. So everything changed. So the opening of the town hall in 1885 was a massive parade, but when the hall opened the rest of the building, it was September 1914, when the war had just started. So it's quite interesting at the time because when you think when the war started and it's a simple breakdown of the First World War Archduke Ferdinand gets shot in Serbia.

JimFitzpatrick: 35:02

Austria attacks Serbia. Russia have got a pact with Austria. Austria have got a pact with Germany, russia have got a pact with France. They all declare a war on each other. Germany attacks France, going through Belgium. Belgium have got a treaty with Great Britain. Great Britain enters the war and that's how the domino effect happened.

JimFitzpatrick: 35:24

One of the things about when the Germans went through Belgium lots of refugees, because it was a war-torn country at the time. Britain allocated a number of refugees to every town in Britain at the time and Hyde was allocated 55 refugees from Belgium who came across here. They just turned up at Hyde Central Station with a tag on with the Hyde Town Hall and they came to Hyde and the people of Hyde welcomed them in, gave them places to live, gave them areas where they were able to work and everything. And when the war broke out in 1914, if you look in Hyde Town Hall where there's boards that have got all the men's names of the people who died, some of the Belgian refugees were carpenters. They carved all those boards. If people want to go in and see them where they are. They carved the boards and they've got these five boards there from 1914, 15, 16, 17, 18 and 19. So all those boards were carved by the Belgian refugees as a thank you to the people of Hyde for taking them in and looking after them while their country was being ravaged by the Germans at the time.

JimFitzpatrick: 36:48

But in the tour we go around there and the 710 men who went off to the First World War are honoured on that place. And then eventually they built Werneth Lowe the cenotaph up at Werneth Lowe, and that was opened in 1922. That was by public donation. But initially all the names and they still are there today, all the names were in Hightown Hall 710 men from Hyde went, the youngest being 16, the eldest being 63. All those men died. They thought the war would be over by Christmas and lots of volunteers went. But obviously and I say 1919, although Armistice Day is November, the 11th 1918 that's when they decided to stop shooting each other. The peace treaty wasn't signed until june 1919. So some cenotaphs have 1418 war, some cenotaphs have the 1419 in hyde. It's the 1419 war because, like I said, peace, peace was signed in 1919. They just stopped shooting at each other in 1918 I never knew that, so um moving on from that I mean move

JimFitzpatrick: 38:03

go on. I was going to say that I mean throughout the tour. There are different things that have happened. In Hightown Hall After the Second World War they decided that people needed an uplift and something going on. So in 1951, they had a festival of Britain and it was a cultural festival. So there was lots of things going on. In Hyde we've got some murals that Harry Rutherford painted. Harry Rutherford's quite a famous painter, but he was from Hyde. So if people know about Harry Rutherford painted, harry Rutherford's quite a famous painter, but he was from Hyde. So if people know about Harry Rutherford, he's painted the murals over Hyde because he was asked by the Hyde councillors to do it, as you know. Can you paint these murals for us? He didn't really want to but he did because he was civic pride, but one of the things about.

JimFitzpatrick: 38:49

Harry Rutherford and TV was just coming out at the time. He was a character artist. He he could uh, talk to you and have a pencil and a pad in his pocket and do a character of you while he was talking to you. I never met the man but he seems fascinating. But, like I say, he's one of the things from hyde. Now I said before about the town hall being built and we've got the dance floor in there. It's a wonderful spring dance floor and I don't know whether you listeners will remember the film Yanks.

MArk: 39:25

Oh yeah.

JimFitzpatrick: 39:26

A lot of that was in Upper Mill and everything. But there's a dance scene in Yanks where that scene was taken in Hightown Hall and there's the other scene where somebody gets thrown over a balcony. That was in Hightown Hall, so Yanks was actually filmed in Hyde.

MArk: 39:45

Right, I never knew that. Never knew that, see.

JimFitzpatrick: 39:49

So we've got the police cells in Hyde as well. And obviously Ian Brady was. Because he was in Hatsley and he was from Hyde. He was arrested by the Hyde police station. He was taken down to Hyde for questioning. So he was held in Hyde for four days while he was questioned and Myra Hindley wasn't arrested at the time.

JimFitzpatrick: 40:16

They just thought it was such a heinous crime. It couldn't be done by a woman, it would just be a man who did it. And then they found he had a locker key from Charlton Street bus station. They went down to Charlton Street bus station, they tried it in every locker and then they found a suitcase. The key opened a locker and in that locker was a suitcase and it had all the pictures and tapes of what they'd actually done. Then they actually arrested Myra Hindley and took her to Hyde Police Station as well.

JimFitzpatrick: 40:45

So then they were because it was only a magistrate's court and they were from Hyde, they had to be taken before the magistrates in Hyde and then they were sent to Chester at the time for trial and sentencing. I thought at the time they would have been sent to Manchester but because Hyde was in Cheshire, chester was the centre, so they were actually tried at Chester Crown Courts, not Manchester Crown Courts, right? So I take people around the cells and it never ceases to amaze me that people take pictures. They always ask me which cell was Ian Brady kept in? I don't know, to be honest, it could have been any one of them, so did you make it up?

MArk: 41:28

You tick the face, he says, oh, it's this one.

JimFitzpatrick: 41:29

He says oh no, I mean there's only six cells down there. I don't know which cell it is, but there is a walkway where they walk them up into the courtroom, and he would have been in front of the magistrates in the courtroom so we can see that so do you still do the tours today?

MArk: 41:48

is it a regular thing, the tour, or is it one-off?

JimFitzpatrick: 41:51

I usually do them for Heritage Weekend. But if any groups want me to do the tours, if they contact me I'll do group tours. I usually do take about 20 people round at a time if they can, but I've taken different people round there. When I talk about Civic Pride there's a stained glass window in Hyde Town Hall in the council chamber and that was donated by the third mayor of Hyde, john Cheetham. He donated the stained glass window to Hyde Town Hall where obviously Thomas Ashton donated the extension of the tower. John Cheetham donated that and it's interesting in the stained glass windows we know it was John Cheeth. It's interesting in the stained glass windows we know it was john cheatham because it says in stained glass windows jc donated 1984. Now we know jc is not the big jc, it's actually um, all right, yeah, john cheatham. So so it is. It is quite interesting.

JimFitzpatrick: 42:50

Lots of different features of Hightown Hall. That's sort of hard to get across in a radio broadcast because you have to see them. So all the stained glass windows. So the early mayors all had a stained glass window and then they ran out of stained glass windows in 1920. That was the last mayor to have a stained glass window. So then they put all the mayors of the time on a silver plaque and put it at the back of the council chamber. But interestingly, in Hyde it got its foundation in 1881 and then under the Local Government Act in 1972, they formed Tameside. So in 1974, tameside was formed and that was the end of hyde corporation. So hyde corporation didn't last 100 years in that sense. There was 74 mayors of hyde.

JimFitzpatrick: 43:43

Only three were women, the first mayor, the first female mayor of hyde wasn't until 1957. Going back further than that, when I said before about if you were a Protestant you could go to university. If you're Catholic you couldn't. The first Catholic mayor in Hyde wasn't until 1910. He was the first Catholic mayor. Previous to that there was all Protestants.

JimFitzpatrick: 44:11

One of the big debates that they had back in the 1900s was whether we should have a graveyard in Hyde. I only found this out recently. There was real opposition from the churches at the time for corporations having graveyards because that would have taken money away from the churches. So there was a big debate about it away from the churches. So there's a big, big debate about it. And in hyde there was a big debate about whether we should have hyde cemetery or not. So they agreed in the end to had have hyde cemetery.

JimFitzpatrick: 44:45

But in hyde cemetery and unfortunately they're not there there's three different chapels. There was a protestant chapel, the catholic chapel and non-conformist chapel, because that's what they actually agree. All right, actually they're not there. There was three different chapels. There was a Protestant chapel, the Catholic chapel and an unconformist chapel, because that's what they had to agree eventually but what the Church of England did at the time. Because of that, any church that graveyards eventually closed so where the graveyard was full and they couldn't intern anybody else. Any graveyard that gets closed reverts back to the local authority to maintain and that's the national policy. But it's only for the Church of England graveyards. No other graveyards count for that.

MArk: 45:23

All right, sounds a bit dodged up, doesn't?

JimFitzpatrick: 45:26

it. Hey, it just. I mean, we look today and we think there's prejudice today, but there's always been prejudice in a sense, going back, for different reasons, different things. Yeah, about you know incomers coming into your town. Yeah, they're always seeing this. You know, you're always being an incomer. So, like saying Hyde, when they brought different people in from all over the country, it was always seen as incomers. You know, those people from yorkshire coming over, coming into wide yeah, and there's like a fear, fear of the unknown fear of the unknown probably get the blame for anything that ever goes wrong.

MArk: 46:01

Do you know what I mean? And I always think this about the, the. You know the building of hattersley and and the moore's murder, the moore's murderers, the link to you. Know people associate the, the, the mooreors murderers, the link to you. Know people associate the Moors murderers with Hasler. But they weren't actually. You know they were not, they weren't from I. They'd come in, they come in, they'd moved into this new estate and and um, and that kind of that shadow has probably cast over, has for, uh, for a long time because people I don't know, but they're individuals.

JimFitzpatrick: 46:35

You know that's not. That's not what people in had to say. You know they are just two individuals that just happen to live here. But you could say that about West. Does that blight the town where he came from? No, no, you know throughout history there's been these different people. I mean, unfortunately we've got Harold Shipman in Hyde as well, so you know, that doesn't say that every doctor from Hyde is a mass murderer.

MArk: 47:02

No no.

JimFitzpatrick: 47:02

But it's just how people portray it. It's oh. I was in Spain last week and you know, were you talking to different people? Where are you from? I said, oh, I'm from Hyde. Oh, harold Shipman, that Hyde? Oh yeah.

MArk: 47:17

It's kind of the media as well picks up on that. The media, you know they contribute so much, you know, with the messages they put out and how they associate these things. So while we're on this subject, which you know, we can't help mentioning the passing of Ricky Atten. This week he's put Hyde and Hattersley on the map.

JimFitzpatrick: 47:42

And he's done it for all the right reasons. You know, a world champion from Hyde is a marvellous thing, and it's a shame that when I was in Spain last week, somebody said to me, instead of saying from Hyde oh, is that not where Ricky Hatton comes from? The world champion Would have been a better analogy of Hyde, wouldn't it?

MArk: 47:56

No, no, it isn't mentioned somewhere.

JimFitzpatrick: 47:59

So it's great shame, ricky. I was at a reception with Ricky in Hightown Hall after he got his, after he'd won the the championship. So you know Ricky Hatton will be added to my tour tomorrow to say that this is the hallway we met with Ricky Hatton right.

MArk: 48:19

Yeah, well, it's such a sad loss and he was. He was a great guy. He was very down at work and didn't forget his roots. He actually donated some money to one of our youth projects. I could never get him on the podcast or come out, but no RIP, ricker. We thought we'd give him a mention. Yeah, so on that note, right, let's just go for a break. Okay, beryl, put the kettle on. You're listening to Hats, Chats and Giggles podcast.

Speaker 4: 48:55

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MArk: 49:37

Welcome back folks. Yep, we're in the studio today with Jim Fitzpatrick, a local historian. He's been filling my head with a lot of historical facts I never knew. So, jim, what first drew you into researching Hyde's history? Was it a moment where it happened or was it just?

JimFitzpatrick: 49:56

Well, I went to school at Greenfield Street School, a secondary modern school for boys, which is right next to the town. I'll wear as there is today and because of the change when I mentioned before about the change in legislation that Hyde was going to finish in a sense and become Tameside. So 1974, that's when I left school in 1974, and that was the year that they'd actually increased the leaving age to 16. So I was one of the first ones at 16 to leave school. I mean that hadn't changed for about 30 years, so the previous to that it was 15. And those changes happened and one of my teachers decided it would be a good idea if we went round Hyde Town Hall because obviously, as an administration centre at the time, hyde was still operating. So we went in groups of 15.

JimFitzpatrick: 50:49

It was only a short walk across to the town hall and we went round the whole town hall and they took us round there into the courtrooms where, it was unfortunate, one of the lads in my class, his father, his uncle, was up in front of the magistrates and he was a bit embarrassed when we all walked in and sat there to see that his uncle was up in front of the magistrates, but we also went down round the police stations and 15, 14 yards down looking at the cells, and the sergeant said right, lads, lads, these are the cells. He says don't any of you close the doors, because if you close the door in the meantime I've got to go upstairs and get the key and let you out. So as soon as his back was turned, somebody was shoved into one of the cells and the door was slammed. But I just think telling 14-year-olds not to do something is probably the wrong thing to do. The language you use wasn't what we were used to at that school age either.

JimFitzpatrick: 51:49

What was interesting, though, was Hyde was a fully functioning town hall. They had, obviously, all the administration that went on there. They had the courtrooms, they had the police cells and there was a morgue. So I'm 14 and there's 15 of us and we get taken into the morgue and the morgue attendant says right, lads gather round the table. So there's a table there in front of us with this white sheet over. We all gather round this table. He whips the sheet back. There's a dead woman on the table who's had, um, a post-mortem. So he's telling us all about this post-mortem. I'm thinking I'm 14, not that it's stuck in my memory all these 50, 60 years later, sort of thing, but you know, and the smell stays with me, that, uh, that's the first time I saw a dead body and he was so sort of matter of fact-fact with it that this person had died and they had to carry her to post-mortem to find out what she died for. I'm just thinking if that happened today, just the uproar would be unbelievable, inducing trauma into children. Yeah.

JimFitzpatrick: 52:58

So it's just. That was my first insight into Hightown Hall and it was such an interesting tour that that stayed with me and I just think it's just. That was my first insight into Hyde Town Hall and it was such an interesting tour that that stayed with me and I just think it's a fascinating building, hyde Town Hall, and it's well worth a tour. So if there are any community groups out there and want to contact me and I'll see if I can set up a tour and I'll take them round the Town Hall because it's a wonderful building to see and one of the things about the Victorians the front of the town hall was all built in the best brick. The internal walls and the back of the town hall was built in common brick. When they demolished the Greenfield house, there was a lot of clay and the builder at the time asked the council whether he could use his clay to make his bricks bricks and they said yeah, as long as you only use them for the internal walls and uh, things like that. So that's what he did he made his own bricks to build the internal walls and the uh, the walls that you can't see, but the front, the front buildings, all like, say, all in pristine brick. But it's something that the Victorians did. They were all about frontage and what happened at the back of the building didn't really matter that much, but it's testament to the building that it's still there and it was built in three separate sections, as I said. So the hall and the court were built in 1914, and then the Greenfield Street one was added in 1937 and that completed the town hall.

JimFitzpatrick: 54:28

But the estate that they actually purchased back in 1881 went all the way down to Great Norbury Street and the fire station was there and the health clinic was there. And then they built Greenfield street school in 1922 and that was a boys school up above and the primary school below. But all the fields and anything, any sports fields we had to walk up to walk lane, to play on. We didn't have anything, obviously, because it was in the town centre. There was nothing there. Our sports fields were up on the town hall and our cross country run was out the back, out the bottom of um greenfield street and onto the canal, and that was our, our cross country run. So probably that's what got me into running as well at the time. Right, I used to enjoy it.

MArk: 55:16

So, um, so I'm gonna leave. I'm gonna leave some contact details in the show in the show notes. So if anyone wants is interested in in, you know, um, finding out a bit more or going on a tour with jim, we're gonna put that. So if someone was interested, if a listener maybe it's the twins in singapore if they're interested in Hyde's history, where would they start on the internet? Or where would you start? Or are you the guy to go and see?

JimFitzpatrick: 55:52

There is a book called the Annals of Hyde written by Thomas Middleton. Now Thomas Middleton was the mayor of Hyde in 1932 and the best book to read is the History of Hyde by Thomas Middleton or the Annals of Hyde and Surrounding Neighbourhoods. It's a fascinating book. So any information you want is all in there of Thomas Middleton. But I have picked up other bits over the years. Like I say, that book was 1932. So he's got all the historical information of Hyde from there. But there is the Hyde Historical Society on the internet. You go on there. There's lots of other fascinating things about Hyde that people have put up there that you can see from old buildings and things like that and different areas that people researched into and put on there. Werneth Law is a fascinating area. You know that dates back to when the Romans were here. So you know there are lots of very interesting places across Hyde of what went on there. Like most places, it's old, isn't it?

MArk: 57:03

Yeah, so how do you think? What about the, about the hide today? Have you got any thoughts? I know there's there's quite a lot of, there's quite a lot of talk about the development of hide at the moment, and have you got any? Can you give us an insight?

JimFitzpatrick: 57:15

to that. One of the things about um the development of Hyde is when they started the building in Hyde they built around the mill industries. People didn't have cars, didn't have any sort of form of transport. They used to walk to work. So where your mill was, if you could walk to work and it was in walking distance of where you lived, that's what they did.

JimFitzpatrick: 57:40

The the streets are very narrow in Hyde. If you look at Hyde today, we've got all these terraced houses where you know it's full of cars. There's cars either side of the road, cars park on the pavement. Cars have taken over in that sense. But the infrastructure we've got is quite Victorian and that was because back in 1881, when Hyde developed, they developed all the houses but they all developed around the town centre and that's no different from what happened across the country.

JimFitzpatrick: 58:11

If you look, our cities are where we pack all our people in. So Manchester, birmingham and all that. And if you look at Britain as a whole, we live in 6% of the land that is in Britain. I mean it's quite an agricultural area. Like I flew to Spain, you fly over Britain. You can see all the green that's there. If you travel on the train anywhere or go anywhere. You see how green Britain is. We're very lucky in Hyde because we're on the doorstep to the peak district and, you know, go walks around there. It's, uh, we are a very green area, you know.

JimFitzpatrick: 58:52

So when, uh, like I said, the victorians built hyde, in a sense we built it around the, the factories, so people could walk to work. But, but you know, we are a growing population, we need to expand, so we need to build more houses and that's what we're doing. As I said earlier, there was eight tower blocks in Hattersley that have all been demolished, and quite rightly so, because you know, the conditions that people were living in there was awful. And you look at some of the houses that we built in Hattersley that were wooden properties, that were back in the 60s, were only temporary, were lasting for over 40 years, and they've changed. So Hattersley itself is changing, you know, with an aging population. We've just opened the, uh, the new center where the community center used to be, and everything, which I had a tour around last week. It's wonderful, wonderful development and you can get people living in there caring for our elderly. That's, in a society, that's what we should do.

MArk: 59:53

Yeah, well, we've done the last podcast we've done live from Birchley. Yeah, it's an amazing, amazing complex there.

JimFitzpatrick: 1:00:02

But we need more of them. So, going forward, we are an ageing population. We have to look after our elderly far better, and Birchley is a wonderful example of doing that. I was talking to the head of adult care in Tameside and she was saying that they could do with two or three more of these across Tameside, because it's such a wonderful development and we are caring for our elderly as a society. That's what we should do. We should look after our elderly, but we don't do it, and the Victorians never did. Either. They lock them in institutions or work them to death and things like that. So we are a changing society and Hyde is changing and we either embrace change or we try to oppose it.

JimFitzpatrick: 1:00:47

And although I look back at Hyde and the history of Hyde, I can see that even back then they changed Hyde. They changed Hyde when they came in at the time. They did built lots of houses, they built lots of roads. They built lots of different institutions. There were institutions about at the time. There was a mechanics institution that used to be on the corner of Union Street and Market Street. That was the place where they used to meet. That building's gone, but it doesn't mean that we haven't got others. They replaced it with the Town Hall and that was a meeting place and Hyde Town Hall should be used more as a community resource than what it is. We've moved the library in there. The footfall now, because it's in the town centre, that footfall increased by a third from the old building where it was.

JimFitzpatrick: 1:01:35

Like I said, the old building where it was, victorians did this idea of the front of that building and the side of the Technical College is best brick. The back of it is all common brick and poor brick and quite a poor building really. So all that's got to be demolished. Now that is going to be developed into apartments, which is a major development. It's a shame that building's taken so long, but things happen. When we talked about Birchley earlier, I was talking about Birchley when I was a councillor in hattersley back in the early 2000s to do that development. Now, in 2025, that development's open. So it just shows you sometimes how long things take to develop. It's a great shame because it was a great idea back in the 2000s when we were talking about it and it's still a great idea now. But it takes so long sometimes to develop and that's the problem with the old Hyde Library. It's taken sort of 10 years to get the stage where we've got a developer in there to get it done Right.

JimFitzpatrick: 1:02:37

I was talking earlier about Hattersley. Hattersley's planning permission was passed in 1954. The first person moved in in 1963, at the time, in 54, there was a massive objection to it, a public outcry that you know they didn't want Hattersley built, with all those outsiders coming up here. It's a wonderful place to live. Hattersley now know the, the communities, the. It's a great community, great community spirit and it is a marvellous, marvellous place and it's changed. Hattersley's changed over the years, from the 60s when it was built. What it is now and people say, well it's, it's not changed for the better. I embrace change. I think we need change all the time.

MArk: 1:03:21

We constantly change well, while we're talking about it, I mean from from what you've told me, uh, when Hyde was first built, it was embracing technology, the technological changes as the mills, uh, developed from from water to steam to electricity and the the transport links and stuff like that. That was all technology. And in today's society, technology again. We've got to embrace technology to grow really, because everyone's got a phone nowadays, people buy stuff off Amazon. Like you say, the UK is dominated by cars. Our transport system nowadays is, in my eyes, it's pretty bobbins really, when we've, you know, everyone's got a car. So everyone's, you know, households have got two cars.

MArk: 1:04:13

Um, and I'm up for the change. I'm up for the change. Uh, maybe some people want to see hide, hide market and the mall and everything back to like what it used to be. But society and culture has changed so much that I'm there with you and it is a shame that it can take so long for these things to develop. So you must be proud when you look at virtually, that it's finally come Because I've spoke, I interviewed the residents in the last podcast and it's finally come, um, because I've spoke, I interviewed the residents in in the last podcast and it's just changed their lives. It's just it's. It's totally changed their lives. So big up to everyone, uh, for doing that, but um, it's gonna just say it's no different than what it used to be.

JimFitzpatrick: 1:04:59

Back in the uh 1800s there was a thing called the plug riots and that was because the steam engines had taken over and they were sort of running the factories. So I said before about water was running. There was a plug riots and on a steam engine if you it builds up steam obviously and that dry, that that would drive the the machinery. But there would be a plug on it and if you could pull the plug that'd let all the steam out. So the Luddites at the time would stop technology coming in. So we look at steam engines now and think you know, it's all technology, but at the time that was brand new technology and people were fearful of it and it was taking away their jobs. Right, in a sense. Sense, because you know it could run 20, 30 looms at a time and that was a big change at the time. So I'd always embraced change. We've changed over the years. You know it's constantly changing and we can't keep harping back to what it used to be because it's not. It's not what it used to be. We've got the change.

JimFitzpatrick: 1:06:03

Like I say, the Town Hall clock at the time was a real revolutionary idea that you'd have a clock on a municipal building. You'll notice Ashton Town Hall never had a clock on it and neither did Staley Bridge. But once Hyde put their clock on it and Duckeyfield built their Town hall, which is very similar to Hyde's town hall, the footprints more or less the same. They had a clock on theirs. Ashton and Stalybridge built their market halls and both put clocks on them. So clocks at the time were a major innovation but we don't see it now.

MArk: 1:06:44

No, half the kids can't even read a proper clock nowadays. My grandkids can't.

JimFitzpatrick: 1:06:49

Well, we all have digital clocks. You don't need them.

MArk: 1:06:52

But anyway, we're going to have to pull it to an end.

MArk: 1:06:57

So, what a journey through time you've taken us through Rowan. A huge thanks, jim Fitzpatrick, for sharing his knowledge and passion for Hyde and the stories behind the town hall. It's been really interesting. It's really incredible to think how past continues to shape the town that we live in today and how historic buildings still stand as reminders of our shared community identity. So if you've enjoyed this episode of Ask Jackson Giggles, don't forget to follow the podcast, share, comment, like and if you know someone who might be interested in the history of IDE, share the podcast on whatsapp, facebook, social media or whatever. And please let us know if you've got any local stories we'd love to hear about. But until next time, keep celebrating the history all around us and keep giggling along the way, please. Thanks, jim, for coming in.

JimFitzpatrick: 1:07:55

Thanks very much, mark, it's been very interesting. I never got to the ghost stories at Hightown Hall, but that's another day.

MArk: 1:08:02

Oh, the ghost stories of Hightown Hall, but that's another day. Oh, the ghost stories of Hightown Hall. Well, I might be back to you on that, but maybe around Halloween, yeah, so anyway, thanks, thanks for listening. Folks, You've been listening to Hatch, chats and Giggles. Turn on, tune in and tell your grandma thanks for the rabbits and a big shout going out to Tiddles the Cat and Lucky the Goldfish. Thank you for listening to Hats, chats and Giggles podcast.

MArk: 1:08:31

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